/Interview/ The truth behind the IE8 blacklist
28/05/2009 | Filed under Discover > Interview
The launch of IE8 has been mired in confusion and controversy. Ian Moulster, senior product manager for Microsoft UK, chats to Tom May about developer support, standards and the dreaded ‘blacklist’
.net: If I build a standards-complaint website, will I have to change anything so it renders correctly in IE8? I’ve heard a lot about the compatibility mode blacklist, but am a little confused.
IM: Let me be really clear on this. If you develop your site to broad internet standards such as CSS2.1, your site will render fine in IE8. That’s the whole point of Standards View being the default view with IE8 – it means you develop your site once and it renders correctly in all standards-compliant browsers. The Compatibility View list isn’t a blacklist.
Let me explain how this works. IE8 has two modes: Standards Mode (which is the default) and IE7 mode, known as Compatibility Mode. If we notice that a popular site has some kind of issue with IE8 Standards Mode that is fixed by running in Compatibility Mode, we contact that website and tell them that we would like to put them on the Compatibility View list. If they’re on this list then their site will render in Compatibility Mode for all users who subscribe to the list. Why would they find that useful? Well if they don’t have the time right now to make amendments to their site, for example, it’s a really easy way for them to be sure that it will be compatible. If they tell us they would prefer not to go on this list, then they don’t go on the list. And they can ask to be removed from the list at any time by sending us an email. The list is public, you can have a look at it and see who’s on it. There was an article in .net magazine recently that talked about the Compatibility View list and contained a number of misconceptions about how it works, which is a pity but evidently we haven’t explained it well enough. This is something we’re offering to sites, not something we’re forcing on them. It’s back to that same focus on our principles: make it easy for developers to build sites that work with IE8 as well as making sure that users get a great experience. I think the approach we’ve adopted is the right approach and the sensible approach.
.net: So if you don’t want to be on the list, you don’t have to be.
IM: That’s right. If someone’s on the list and doesn’t want to be, they can email them and we’ll take them off, that’s not a problem. There’s an email address for this, which is iepo@microsoft.com.
.net: So this is high-traffic sites, presumably?
IM: Yeah, pretty much.
.net: How many people are on the list?
IM: Worldwide, it’s around 3,000 sites. They’re sites we determine to be high traffic as well as mission critical. So one example I would give is that you wouldn’t want the government’s taxation site to go down at the time they’re trying to collect their taxes. We’re working with all the sites that are on the list to make sure they can be taken off the list as soon as possible.
The user has the option of pressing the compatibility button and turning it into IE7 Mode and the browser will remember that the next time you go back and always render in IE7 Mode. We’re trying to adhere to the principle of not making life difficult for devs, but also making sure that people can still browse the web and get things done.
.net: It’s 3,000 now, but could that figure jump enormously as more people start using IE8? Or is Microsoft going keep it to around that number?
IM: We do want to keep it to a relatively small number, and our priority is to get them off the Compatibility List. I’ve seen some reports around compatibility button usage – it’s actually quite low relative to what we expected. So we’re feeling pretty good about that process and being able to get sites off.
.net: To get on the list, is it a question of people reporting you, or just a lot of people putting you into Compatibility View?
IM: The second more so. So we look at how many people have used the compatibility view button and then we’ll look at that site and take a view as to whether it’s worth putting you on the list or not. We’ll email you first to say we’re putting you on the list – if you don’t want to go on this list, let us know.
.net: How exactly do users know a site’s not rendered correctly?
IM: It’s entirely their take on it. So you look at the page and you think “Does that look right”? If you can see what you want to see, then maybe you don’t really care. You may find that text overlaps, say, and you think “This doesn’t look quite right”, I’ll just refresh it and see if that makes a difference. And we’ve put the compatibility button next to the refresh button for that reason. It’s got a little broken page icon and when you hover over it a little bubble appears, which describes pretty well what it’s for. I think people will just press it anyway. If they see a page and they find it’s difficult to read because text is overlaid or there are big gaps, they’ll probably press this button.
.net: What does IE8 offer to developers?
IM: We’re very pleased with the level of developer support we have built into IE8. Every copy of IE8 ships with a comprehensive developer mode: you can access it by pressing F12 at any time. There’s a ton of stuff in here so let me just give you a flavour of what you can do. At the very simple end you can do things like change the application used as the source viewer, turn off images or get reports on images, validate things like links and CSS and HTML, view the page in IE7 mode, quirks mode, IE8 mode, etc.
You can also see and amend the HTML and CSS, and get the page to re-render to observe your changes. And you can set breakpoints in scripts, inspect values of variables and set watch variables, step through code a line at a time, view the call stack, etc.
It makes it really easy and quick to find and resolve issues or just to try things out and see the effect of your changes.
.net: Does Microsoft plan to ditch Trident, and move to a better engine such as WebKit/Gecko/Presto?
IM: The web developer community is kind of, well, vocal and has some very strong views, and we absolutely need to listen to these guys and take on board what they’re saying. But we also need to stay very focused on what we want to achieve, what we think is right, and what we’ve said is we want to do two specific things. We want to make sure that devs have as good an experience as possible of developing for IE8 and we want to make sure that users have a good experience too. That’s what we focused on with IE8 and we used the principles to deliver what we believe is the best product out there. And we’ve done that on the platform as it stands, and we think that’s the right thing to have done. So when you say ‘better engine’…?
.net: There have been a lot of rumours that Microsoft is thinking of moving away from Trident…
IM: I’ve heard nothing about that internally and as far as I know there’s absolutely no truth in it. We’re focused on getting the best results and we’ve managed to do that with the platform we’ve got, and so moving to something else wouldn’t make sense.
.net: So IE9 will be using Trident?
IM: I don’t know the answer to that. It’s not that I do know and I’m not telling you, I just don’t know. We’ve only just launched IE8!
.net: What is the best solution to running IE 6,7,8 on the same PC?
IM: There may be other solutions, but the one that I think is the best is to download a copy of Virtual PC, which is free now as you may know, and run virtual PCs on the machine so you have all three. There may be other ways of doing it but that’s an obvious solution.
.net: Will IE8 resolve all issues of IE6 and 7 and catch up to Firefox and Safari, or will we still need hacks?
IM: I think the only answer we can give to that is that we’re very proud of what IE8 is, and we think it is very good from the developer point of view and is very good from an end-user point of view. With the standards mode we’ve removed a lot of the question marks people had about having to code for different versions. So we think we’ve addressed that, and it remains to be seen what other people think, but I think we’ve got a great product.
.net: Why does IE8 dramatically fail Acid3?
IM: From a standards point of view, we wanted to make sure we support the broadest and most accepted standards out there. Now Acid 3’s interesting because it’s not a W3C standard, it’s an advocacy group who promote it. That doesn’t mean we’re going to ignore it certainly but we’re really focused on the most broadly accepted web standards. We looked at the Acid3 test and looked at our aims for IE8 and felt that they didn’t really align. In other words, there wouldn’t be sufficient value for developers or users for us to put considerable development effort in just to pass this test. We could more usefully apply that effort elsewhere. We also heard that Mike Shaver from Mozilla didn’t think much of Acid3 either, so even the Firefox team doesn’t see huge value in the test as it stands. We aimed for Acid 2 as we felt it was a much more relevant test than Acid3 at this time, and we aimed for CSS 2.1. In fact, we have incredibly strong support for CSS 2.1 and have helped to develop the standard. So it’s back to that point: you need to focus on what’s important to you, and keep focusing on that. There’s a lot of noise about what’s right and what’s wrong and a lot of people telling you what you should do. Some of these people are very sincere in that; I think others have vested interests of their own and you could spend your time chasing your tail, doing things that don’t actually help you achieve what you’ve set out to achieve.
.net: When will Microsoft ditch IE6 support, and make a later version available to Windows 2000 users?
IM: Are we going to release IE7 or IE8 for Windows 2000? I would say it’s unlikely. However, we are very enthusiastic to move people off IE6.
.net: But not if they’re using Windows 2000?
IM: Well, in terms of priorities, we’ll aim it where the biggest number of people are. The biggest number of IE6 people are on XP. That’s the place we need to aim, and those people can upgrade very easily to IE7 and IE8. In fact, if you’re on IE6 on XP and you’ve got Windows Update switched on, you’ve already had the option to install IE7. Most people said yes, but some people said “No, I wish to stay on IE6”, and this was totally their choice. As you may know, support for Windows XP has just moved from mainstream to extended phase, so support for IE running on XP is handled in the same way. Only SP2 and SP3 are supported, and by ‘pay per incident’ only, but we are still supporting IE6 on XP at this point.
.net: So IE6 support is continuing for the foreseeable future?
IM: In line with our extended support lifecycle, yes, even though we’re keen for people to move on and we’re looking for ways to help them do that.
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Comments
DuCakedHare / 28/05/2009 / 18:02 / http://www.ducakedhare.co.uk
Would it not be better to have people choose for themselves which mode they want for a site and fixate that choice?
Would it not be more maintainable to allow pages to include a simple tag saying "we render better in mode X for you MSIE users"?
Why try to centralize the list? If sites self-declare themselves, that allows collection via crawlers, removes the need for opt-in opt-out permission-seek emails etc etc
You have to "think web" when on web.
Jef Claes / 28/05/2009 / 18:48 / http://jclaes.blogspot.com
By just setting the right meta tag developers can force IE8 to use the IE7 standards. IIt would only take a few minutes to get of that black list right?
We faced the same problem and I added the metatag. I blogged about it here btw (if someone is curious) http://jclaes.blogspot.com/2009/05/ie8-always-use-ie7-standards.html
David Nicholas / 29/05/2009 / 08:23 / http://www.typicalenglish.co.uk
With all the different versions flying about, we are still having problems with some scripting working on some versions and not on others. It seems to be never ending.
James / 03/06/2009 / 22:36
Actually reading this article I think I understand (for the first time) what they're doing and it kind of makes sense. I'm never likely to become a fan of IE but reading this I feel MS are trying, even if they have a way to go.
Ian Moulster / 04/06/2009 / 09:41 / http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/readiness/developers.aspx
DuCakedHare - I'm glad you raised this question because that's something that you can already do. There are four ways a site can be compatible with IE8:
1) If it's written to broadly-accepted Internet standards, it will simply work
2) If there are rendering or functional problems that are corrected by running in IE7 mode, the developer can put a single line of HTML in the page to cause it to always render in IE7 mode, see http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/readiness/developers-new.aspx#updateIE7 for details
3) If you can't / aren't able to include that single line of HTML, then you might want to go on the compatibility view list so that your site gets switched to IE7 mode automatically
4) A user visiting the page can press the compatibility view button to have the site switch to IE7 mode
This represents the "best to worst" scenario for us. In other words, best option is that the site uses broad standards and renders correctly. Next best choice is that you include that single line of HTML to switch to IE7 mode. Third best option is to go onto the compatibilty view list. Worst option is the user having to press the button.
Ian.
Anthony Linton / 04/06/2009 / 10:33
"So when you say ‘better engine’…?"
Is he serious? He really thinks their engine is anywhere near as good as webkit etc? Is it not bad enough that IE is already a pathetic browser, do they really have to act like we're dumb?
It's all well and good supporting CSS2, but us web developers actually want more. They're not moving things forward at all. If Google can come out of no where with a browser better than IE, why on earth can't the IE team improve a browser more than a few rules at a time that they've supposedly been working with for over a decade?
I'm glad he's happy that they've caught up to say, firefox 1.5 which was released in 2005 and supported CSS 2.1. What's four years on the web eh? Simply deluded.
Chris K / 07/06/2009 / 09:30 / http://www.ncoded.com
same problems, different versions.
Matt / 08/06/2009 / 14:21 / http://www.vinsolutions.com
It is so sad that MS has to keep a list because web developers can't add a single meta tag which forces the browser to compatibility mode. Pathetic.
I think FireFox is still the better browser
Rochelle / 09/06/2009 / 19:16
Lots of questions were dodged here. Lame, lame, lame.
Pete Campbell / 10/06/2009 / 09:04 / http://www.crearedesign.co.uk
Being a Website Designer, I naturally constantly tackle issues in ensuring compatibility with earlier versions of Internet Explorer. Personally, I feel that compatibility view is a superb addition to Internet Explorer 8, I hope that it'll begin to raise awareness and encourage more people to leave the world of earlier browsers behind.
Andy Walpole / 10/06/2009 / 17:24 / http://www.suburban-glory.com
I was a bit worried about IE8 after viewing my sites in their last Release Candidate version, but once the final version was launched I don't come across any problems that needed fixing.
As Ian said, "If you develop your site to broad internet standards such as CSS2.1, your site will render fine in IE8.".
Edgar Leijs / 12/06/2009 / 16:10 / http://www.edgarleijs.nl
Dear Ian,
You are not giving answers. What's the real agenda? Like Anthony Linton said, why on earth doesn't MS want to make a proper future proof browser? You can but you won't. You are very very busy serving the majorities needs. Maybe your browser dev's can do a workshop at Mozilla or Google??
All other browser vendors can and they do! You are soooo stubborn about this... Nevertheless, IE8+ is a massive improvement compared to previous versions, thanks for that Ian.
Ege / 16/06/2009 / 12:21
So you finally support css 2.1? Thank you very much!
Please just look at the article on Smashing Magazine, named "Take Your Design To The Next Level With CSS3". When will you stop ignoring? Why do you do that? I simply can't understand! Your browsing engine is a nightmare, and you think the others are not better? There are a lot of web sites (i.e. ie7[dot]com) that makes fun of the crappy engine of Explorer's. Don't you see?
Update IE's to Firefox in Windows Update. Please do. That's the only solution!
Steve Redden / 18/06/2009 / 15:04 / http://www.3wise-solutions.com
Hi,
If IE8 runs in standards mode as a default, perhaps you can explain why the IE8 website (http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/internet-explorer/welcome.aspx) uses the IE7 compatibility mode META tag?
In fact, the whole Microsoft website uses it!
Microsoft standards for everyone else except Microsoft evidently...
Steve Redden
Director 3wise Internet Solutions
Chris / 01/07/2009 / 12:44 / http://www.bcm-websolutions.de
I don`t really like Ie8... I tested it on windows7
Michael Kassotakis / 01/07/2009 / 12:51 / http://www.e-bcr.com
It's a remarkable article about IE. Excellent questions and answers. Interesting comments.
Matt / 03/07/2009 / 03:35
I think alot of you are huffing and puffing over what is really turning out to be a situation for the better.
No, microsoft is not doing so much innovation in the browser. But it fell behind a heck of a long way and with IE8 they've gotten a long way back to where they should be.
As has been said countless times, if you develop a standards compliant website, it will display absolutely fine in IE8. I thought this is mostly what people wanted for IE. And now it is here, and everyone still complains. I suppose complaining might keep MS moving forward...
I particularly don't like the arrogance and ignorance of some 'enlightened' developers.
Matt, from vinsolutions, thinks it should be easy to arbitrarily add code into a full corporate production website, and it's 'pathetic' not to be able to.
Anthony Linton thinks that Google 'came out of nowhere' with their browser, chrome. Well, infact, they simply built a shell and javascript engine around the years-old webkit browser engine. The javascript engine is the main feat, and shell is innovative. But they certainly didn't 'come out of nowhere' in their browser's ability to support web standards, they used an existing working platform in webkit.
The biggest problem microsoft have in moving forward is not innovating and leading the pack, but support the endless amount of users who are used to things as they were two years ago and people who won't or even simply can't upgrade their software/hardware from current, as well providers who can't simply jump from a platform supporting the far-more-widely-used IE6 to IE8.
Ian Moulster / 11/07/2009 / 09:05
Quick addendum to the "What is the best solution to running IE 6,7,8 on the same PC" question:
1) Expression Web has a feature called "super preview" that allows you to view how your site renders in IE6, IE7 and IE8. See http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/Web_Features.aspx
2) If you prefer the Virtual PC (VPC) route, you can download images pre-loaded with IE6, IE7 and IE8 from here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=21eabb90-958f-4b64-b5f1-73d0a413c8ef&displaylang=en
Ian.
Louise / 21/01/2010 / 14:10 / http://www.websitedesign.co.uk
I wonder what verion of IE it wil take for all these issues to get resolved?
Media Street / 07/02/2010 / 13:37 / http://www.media-street.co.uk
IE is seriously behind. As a web designer Firefox and Chrome allow you to make ultimate websites. IE always results in these websites getting dumbed down though.
